Ideas for Plugins, Support

[logan683]

Hey, guys. So, I've been thinking about something and wondering if it might at all be possible so I thought I might reach out to the user side and Chaos side of this thing.

Firstly, I think the official support for VRay Blender kicks so much a. Like, it's really cool. But I personally keep running into issues here and there. Mostly plugins. I used Max and got used to plugins like GrowFX, MultiScatter, the Soulburn Scripts, that type of stuff. Obviously these things aren't available for Blender. I've reached out a couple times to iCube and a couple others about maybe looking at creating their plugins for Blender, but didn't really get overwhelming response. I also use Substance and would love to be able to have a plugin to import .sbs files.

My main question to everyone runs as follows:
Does anyone else have any interest in more real, professional plugins for Blender like Chaos gave us with VRay?

I ask because I was thinking that, if so, would Chaos be willing to talk with us (the users) and maybe help us get together with plugin developers? Would we be willing to talk about it?

One idea I had was to pay more for VRay Blender. I would be willing to pay an extra couple hundred USD easy no problem, which gets into the heart of what I've been thinking.

Ok, so, let's say as users we pay an extra couple hundred USD (or whatever the equivalent in other currencies would be). That extra couple hundred bucks Chaos has per user could be broken up to give Chaos a little for their efforts and time, and the rest might be able to be used to supplement development costs to get plugins running. I know developers have to eat, too, and I think we could really, really use the plugins. So, basically, we pay Chaos the money to distribute to developers of plugins we, the users of VRay, really could use.

I think it would be cool if we could get something going on this and get some more professional organisations behind us and what we use.

Thank you very much for taking time to read and please add anything to this conversation. I'm just one guy with one idea and I know there are much smarter, more talented people that would be really cool to hear from. Thank you, everyone.

[Jeffrey]

The eco system (plugins, scripts, 3d model catalogs) around 3dsmax is a huge factor what keeps it going.
I really like what Chaosgroup is doing with their Blender support, although admittedly, it's not at the same level as the 3dsmax version.
So yeah, it would be very nice if other pro plugin developers and content providers, like Itoosoft and Evermotion, would look more seriously at Blender.
Especially considering the momentum and development pace Blender currently enjoys.

[vlado]

Well, just to put things into perspective, at least for the moment, the money we are making off of V-Ray for Blender is not enough to support its development, so we had to find other tasks for Andrey and Lyubo that they can work on at the same time. We are still working on V-Ray for Blender because I personally think it has a future, and because we can afford it. But for other software developers it might not make sense from a financial point of view.

Best regards,
Vlado

[JuhaW]

Thank you for continuing Vray for Blender. We all wondered what happened to Andrei aka bdancer because silence on this forum.

[logan683]

Thank you for the replies, everyone.

Vlado, you raise a very good point. I also strongly believe there is a market because there are economically-minded artists who maybe can't be, or won't be, held hostage by Autodesk. Which is why I was thinking of some way to get Chaos Group some extra money (by paying an extra support fee or whatever you wanna call it) to help get other devs on board with us. I'm not asking for anything for free or at a great loss, at least. I'll pay for the plugins.

I guess can we, the users, ask for Chaos to maybe just reach out with an email to a couple devs for us? I think we can all agree with Vlado and I feel many of us have no problem getting together to figure out some funding for some plugins.

Thank y'all so much and let's see if we can hash something out.

[logan683]

After some retrospect, I realized there was another point I wanted to make. Ok, my personal thoughts are as follows:

I see the future of 3D like the way TV and movies are currently going now, namely, modular. I have internet, but not cable. I prefer the Netflix, Hulu, HBO Now thing. I like that I can buy movies I want on Google. There's things in cable packages, such as the Food Network or HGTV I never watch and don't want to pay for. Even SlingTV allows for customization if you do prefer a traditional cable feel. Now, I feel the same way about Autodesk being TWC or DirecTV or (insert cable provider here). There are things about Autodesk I don't wanna pay for, but there are things I would like and have no problem shelling out out to get, which gets to the root of the other half of my thought.

Ok, so, when I first joined the Chaos Group forums, I was using a pirated copies of 3DS Max, VRay, and multiple plugins. If that admission gets me banned, I understand; I stole a product. However, Chaos Group, after contacting them, allowed me a license for long enough to get one going myself. I saw there was real development for Blender and I jumped on board immediately, no questions asked. I would have paid the Max license price, even, because I know I that may be good for a few years (looking at previous major x.0 upgrade history timelines), and I know the upgrade price is extremely reasonable for another few years. So one larger expense upfront, smaller maintenance fees on the back end. I like that. I'm an economically-conscious artist at the moment, so I personally have a hard time with the (basically) upfront fee every time, no break or relief anywhere. And I know my VRay license gets me more that 2 months rental of the license.

Now, having said all that, I feel that Vlado's point is very valid and that Blender will continue to grow. Kids don't have to shell out for it, it's easy to learn and use at any skill level, it's accessible, it allows customization, it's open-source and can be branched, all that. But, yes, it's free. However, the downside is the lack of support and features. Yes, the Blender Cloud exists, but a lot of times what they get, really, keeps the lights on and rent paid and maintenance of the core, but not the true development needed.

Having admitted my previous piracy and offering my thoughts on being able to purchase modular packages, I feel there is a strong reason to look. Mobile developers, such as Gameloft out of France, are doing more than just fine offering free games and selling packs. What I think would be really cool is something like a "coalition" or "affiliation" or whatever where we, the users, pay a fee to someone (for example purposes only) Chaos Group who is part of a group of devs who work together to create plugins, we, the users want to purchase. Like I said, I have no problem starting a "pool" where we, the users, put in extra to distribute to some devs who would want to join to start the process. We, the users, who have bought in have access to a branch of Blender that allows any plugins created by the participating devs work with no issues. Now, I'm not saying we pay for Blender because there's a whole world of issues with Apache licenses and things with that; what we pay for is a basic plugin pack (that extras can be added to) and we happen to get a true, supported version of Blender where things like OpenSubDiv works correctly with normals and smooth shading and all that. The Blender community would benefit as well, yes, because things like that have to be included to the Blender Foundation for core purposes according to all the licenses, but it would now get real development, which would interest people into who is doing it, which now brings another customer base.

I know there is money in Blender because there are sites, such as CGCookie and Andrew Price's, that aren't doing bad at all. Andrew Price makes a living selling tutorials and he's typically years behind what other artists are doing. His architecture thing goes for twice my VRay license. He also employs other Blender artists, so it seems there's something there to check out.

In summation, my personal thoughts are that people are using plugins and software anyway, a lot of it pirated. Yes, there is upfront development costs, but it seems to me that if devs offered plugins in a way I have proposed, the financial outcome more than far outweighs the initial investment because I feel very strongly that if I quit using pirated software and actually want to pay for things that work without breaking myself every single month, I will do it. And now devs get my money that previously they wouldn't. I totally see why Vlado believes what he does and I feel the exact same way.

Please, feel free to input any information/thoughts. This is a collection of talented, intelligent individuals all around with very interesting views and opinions.

Thank you.

[bardo]

Well, just to put things into perspective, at least for the moment, the money we are making off of V-Ray for Blender is not enough to support its development, so we had to find other tasks for Andrey and Lyubo that they can work on at the same time. We are still working on V-Ray for Blender because I personally think it has a future, and because we can afford it. But for other software developers it might not make sense from a financial point of view.

Best regards,
Vlado

I think most of us had suspects because Andrey (aka bdancer) doesn't reply in the last weeks.

I hope that you'll find not only the personal motivations but also economic support to continue with the development.
I work in the retail design market and with a new project I decided, some months ago, to start with Vray4Blender and I've finished it successfully some weeks ago.

I'm still a 3dsmax user but I'd like to continue with the conversion to Blender and Vray4Blender.

In any case, thank you for your effort.

Really appreciated

[logan683]

I think most of us had suspects because Andrey (aka bdancer) doesn't reply in the last weeks.

I hope that you'll find not only the personal motivations but also economic support to continue with the development.
I work in the retail design market and with a new project I decided, some months ago, to start with Vray4Blender and I've finished it successfully some weeks ago.

I'm still a 3dsmax user but I'd like to continue with the conversion to Blender and Vray4Blender.

In any case, thank you for your effort.

Really appreciated

So, I take it you would be interested in access to more tools for Blender as well, correct? I'm going to (hopefully correctly) assume so. If so, do you have any thoughts?

Thank you.

[bardo]

probably I'm not the best user to speak about this because also in 3dsmax I don't use specific plugins.

I can do all I need without them..so what I'd like to see in Blender is more related to the core of the software and I don't like to much the plugins world because just few software houses have nice support and development power to help in your daily job year by year (and Chaos is surely one these).


Anyway, if you're asking me what I'm missing from 3dsmax is more related to the scene management and array modelling system (at the moment are these the main issues I have...if I think on-the-fly about this).

[logan683]

probably I'm not the best user to speak about this because also in 3dsmax I don't use specific plugins.

I can do all I need without them..so what I'd like to see in Blender is more related to the core of the software and I don't like to much the plugins world because just few software houses have nice support and development power to help in your daily job year by year (and Chaos is surely one these).


Anyway, if you're asking me what I'm missing from 3dsmax is more related to the scene management and array modelling system (at the moment are these the main issues I have...if I think on-the-fly about this).

Well, really, I was asking more about Blender. I also totally feel l understand how you feel about plugins.

I guess what I'm really saying is that, since Blender Foundation has a hard time having all the resources and finding to fully implement things even in core (I would like to be clear that I'm not bashing anyone or their hard work, only pointing out a reality), what I am proposing is that some of the good Max devs work some on Blender, too, and that would allow us to purchase what we need as users. For example, Blender will scatter, but it's kinda limited. To have a real, professionally done method of scattering, MultiScatter could be used. There's also a sapling plugin currently in core now, but ForestPack Pro or GrowFX are more supported and developed methods for plant generation.

Like I mentioned, Blender Foundation does have the Blender Cloud that is subscription-based, but they've had a very, very hard time building that base so most of the funds collected for that, which are supposed to be diverted then to dev, go to keeping the Blender Cloud running and not much goes past there. Even Epic Games has donated for development that didn't amount to much, if anything. Therefore, I say that since there are tools needed that aren't fully, or maybe even incorrectly, implemented and may never be, since Blender us open-source, we can fix that. Again, I feel it is very plausible since, really, Blender is used a lot more places than I knew originally. Like, it's been used at Pixar for some small things here and there. Same with many AAA game studios. When budgets get tight, it's a (mostly) viable option to finish up loose ends and things. It's around and, to go back to Vlado's point, has a future.

Thank you.

[andybot_cg]

Logan,

I'm glad to see this thread raising these issues. I think there are a couple bigger issues before we could even get into the "plugin ecosystem" The first is the major question of the GNU open source licensing of Blender. I recall Andrey alluded to this at some point, in regards to better VFB integration with Blender. From what I understand, there are some significant limits on what can be developed in a commercial way with Blender and the requirement to keep Blender open-source. I can imagine this impacts anyone trying to develop commercial plugins in this environment.

The second issue is that Vray for Blender is not yet even at the same level as Vray for Max or Maya as there are some core functions that are not even available currently: http://forums.chaosgroup.com/showthr...FB-integration

So IMO there are some bigger questions to address before we can have an environment where a plugin maker would even be interested in supporting Vray for Blender.

As far as things like GroxwFX, etc. plugins, I think those are workflow things that are also beyond Vray - as those are things that could apply to a larger Blender audience. I imagine there may be Blender plugins similar that exist currently, but I've not tried any myself. It may be worth looking into what is out there currently and see if other Blender specific plugins could support Vray.

Andy

[andybot_cg]

Also, thanks Vlado for giving some insight on where V/B fits within ChaosGroup. I can totally understand about keeping people employed where they can generate income for the company. It's been a constant fear for the many years I've been using Vray for Blender that one day the support will just dry up and I'll be left with a half-working product (which is why I've still stick with Vray for Sketchup development despite its many delays... At least there I am confident that it's a viable commercial product). I'm very glad to hear that you think it has a future.

Andy

Well, just to put things into perspective, at least for the moment, the money we are making off of V-Ray for Blender is not enough to support its development, so we had to find other tasks for Andrey and Lyubo that they can work on at the same time. We are still working on V-Ray for Blender because I personally think it has a future, and because we can afford it. But for other software developers it might not make sense from a financial point of view.

Best regards,
Vlado

[Jeffrey]

I'm glad to see this thread raising these issues. I think there are a couple bigger issues before we could even get into the "plugin ecosystem" The first is the major question of the GNU open source licensing of Blender. I recall Andrey alluded to this at some point, in regards to better VFB integration with Blender. From what I understand, there are some significant limits on what can be developed in a commercial way with Blender and the requirement to keep Blender open-source. I can imagine this impacts anyone trying to develop commercial plugins in this environment.
Andy

The success of a 3D app (Blender), no matter how good, isn't about the app itself, but the ecosystem around it.
Take for example the asset store for Unity3D. It's very successful, which in return makes Unity3D successful.
I'm not familiar with the licensing restrictions regarding developing commercial plugins for Blender. However imho the licensing should offer enough flexibility in order to attract commercial developers.
That's the only way for Blender to truly succeed.

Imagine having a Blender asset store, with offerings from pro developers and content providers. All presented with a well thought out marketing strategy (e.g. occasional discounts, product hotspots).

[andybot_cg]

I don't think there's a shortage of plugins/assets/developer community around Blender itself. The larger Blender community has that vibrant "ecosystem". I'm referring specifically to Vray integration with Blender, and building a Vray based ecosystem (like there is for Max.) There seems to be some roadblock to fully integrating Vray RT into Blender, and I'd like to see that resolved. Without Blender playing on the same level as Max, I don't see a way to grow user base in the Vray world.

[logan683]

Well, just to put things into perspective, at least for the moment, the money we are making off of V-Ray for Blender is not enough to support its development, so we had to find other tasks for Andrey and Lyubo that they can work on at the same time. We are still working on V-Ray for Blender because I personally think it has a future, and because we can afford it. But for other software developers it might not make sense from a financial point of view.

Best regards,
Vlado

To address Vlado's issue, I can completely see how they have to find other things for Andrey and Lyubo to do. Having said that, it is in our best interest, as users, to keep them busy. andybot_cg raises a very valid point I would like to address momentarily.

Logan,

I'm glad to see this thread raising these issues. I think there are a couple bigger issues before we could even get into the "plugin ecosystem" The first is the major question of the GNU open source licensing of Blender. I recall Andrey alluded to this at some point, in regards to better VFB integration with Blender. From what I understand, there are some significant limits on what can be developed in a commercial way with Blender and the requirement to keep Blender open-source. I can imagine this impacts anyone trying to develop commercial plugins in this environment.

The second issue is that Vray for Blender is not yet even at the same level as Vray for Max or Maya as there are some core functions that are not even available currently: http://forums.chaosgroup.com/showthr...FB-integration

So IMO there are some bigger questions to address before we can have an environment where a plugin maker would even be interested in supporting Vray for Blender.

As far as things like GroxwFX, etc. plugins, I think those are workflow things that are also beyond Vray - as those are things that could apply to a larger Blender audience. I imagine there may be Blender plugins similar that exist currently, but I've not tried any myself. It may be worth looking into what is out there currently and see if other Blender specific plugins could support Vray.

Andy

Andy, I completely agree with your point about getting VRay Blender up to speed with Max. If I may add to it, I feel that the more true professional support there is from other devs, this problem will work itself out. As other devs put out professional Blender plugins, more users will naturally integrate others being offered as well, such as VRay, and now the user base naturally grows. There are many Blender users who want VRay, but most think they're paying the Max price and won't even look at the Chaos Group website. I feel that we, the users, have to help with the marketing, but that's the whole thing about Blender; it belongs to us and not any one person or group, so it's up to us to grow it or let it die. To sum up this point, the more users, the more money, the more development.

As far as anything like GrowFX, no, things like that don't exist. No RailClone, either. There's things needed and there is a very viable market. Check CGCookie's website and store where they're selling a couple plugins, but nothing like Max.

Also, thanks Vlado for giving some insight on where V/B fits within ChaosGroup. I can totally understand about keeping people employed where they can generate income for the company. It's been a constant fear for the many years I've been using Vray for Blender that one day the support will just dry up and I'll be left with a half-working product (which is why I've still stick with Vray for Sketchup development despite its many delays... At least there I am confident that it's a viable commercial product). I'm very glad to hear that you think it has a future.

Andy

Yes, we definitely need to keep Andrey employed. Like, that's our guy. Again, I feel more support from more devs solves this problem naturally. I have the legitimate fear I'll be stuck with another license I can't use, either, but it seems primed and ready to ensure this doesn't happen. Just look at the mobile entertainment, TV, and movie markets. The a la carte thing is working really good there. It's even appeared in major games like Star Wars Battlefront with the ability to just buy weapon packs and not having to earn them in-game. SlingTV operates in this modular way as well and they're really giving cable a run big time. That's why ESPN is having to let so many contracts lapse; they plain don't have the money from a shrinking cable base.

The success of a 3D app (Blender), no matter how good, isn't about the app itself, but the ecosystem around it.
Take for example the asset store for Unity3D. It's very successful, which in return makes Unity3D successful.
I'm not familiar with the licensing restrictions regarding developing commercial plugins for Blender. However imho the licensing should offer enough flexibility in order to attract commercial developers.
That's the only way for Blender to truly succeed.

Imagine having a Blender asset store, with offerings from pro developers and content providers. All presented with a well thought out marketing strategy (e.g. occasional discounts, product hotspots).

Jeffrey, you totally hit the nail on the head. I imagine that exactly. As a matter of fact, Unity allows .blend imports now, so that is actually support from two major devs (Chaos and Unity Technologies), so that tells me that people are actually using Blender in production ways and not just "Blender projects" or test cases. Now we just gotta get Allegorithmic and Epic Games on board, too.

I don't think there's a shortage of plugins/assets/developer community around Blender itself. The larger Blender community has that vibrant "ecosystem". I'm referring specifically to Vray integration with Blender, and building a Vray based ecosystem (like there is for Max.) There seems to be some roadblock to fully integrating Vray RT into Blender, and I'd like to see that resolved. Without Blender playing on the same level as Max, I don't see a way to grow user base in the Vray world.

You are very correct about the current ecosystem of Blender, however, there's any for-profit organisations or companies that are really into it other than Chaos (and Unity). The current plugins are developed by regular dudes, which is fine, but where I'm afraid real problems will happen is when support for those stops. Like, what if someone gets a different job or gets married and no longer has the time? There are many of these plugins that make it into core, which also takes the time of Blender Foundation that they can now not direct toward future development and not just spend on maintenance. Or, if it does make it to core, as many do, and the developer had been keeping it up and his personal situation changes, who maintains the plugin that can now affect core operations? That's why it is very important, I feel, that some real players become involved; they're in it for the money and that's what we need for support. I've been loading up Blender since 2011 and haven't seen anywhere remotely close to the changes Max has made in that time. But again, I feel that since Blender Foundation is non-profit, they'll never truly be able to "support" Blender other than the bug fixes or half implementation of most of the tools we currently have. Yes, there is a fluid engine, but I would almost sell my soul to be able to use PhoenixFD. Or a true implementation of Bullet. Point is, we need devs who depend on the money.

As far as licensing, after having listened to many of the Blender podcasts (

https://blender-podcast.org/

- put out by the Blender Foundation, if anyone else wants to keep up with what's going on over there), and from what I have been able to gather, any core changes would have to be submitted to Blender Foundation, but aren't necessarily prohibited. To get things to work together, it seems natural to me that, yes, work would have to be done on the core to prevent any problems. However, that only improves things for us, the users, which in turn brings more users, which in turn brings more customers for the devs.

Gentlemen, the core here is the fact that we're in this for the money. All of us. We just happen to do something we love, but let's not forget the fact that this is our work and what we depend on to feed our families and pay our bills. To reiterate, I feel it is in our best interest to bring more professional support to Blender and grow a tool that obviously we care about and use. Better tools increase productivity, which increases income. Now, this may also raise issues because Autodesk doesn't like competitors, no matter what size, and we, the users, should be aware of that.

Now, again, to be clear on another point, I am by no means trying to shove anything off on Chaos or anyone else. I am proposing that we, the users take an active stance and that perhaps Chaos, as a leader and supporter of and believer in Blender, just back us and just help bring another dev into the conversation.

Thank you for the time and everyone's voice. This is the only way Blender actually gets better.

Thank you.